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(BotCon) Bigger isn’t always better, kids!
In December of 2009, I took the time to send an email to the organizers of BotCon 2010 about the possibility of bringing “DARE! The Transformers Panel Ultimate” to their convention. For those of you that are not as entrenched in the fan convention scene: my pal Joey Snackpants and I have been hosting a Transformers Panel for fan conventions since 2003. The panel/show has appeared a number of times (under various names) at Anime Express, Anime Festival Orlando, DreamCon, Fitcon, Florida Supercon, the FX Show, Yasumicon, and others. In all, we’ve hosted it (literally) dozens of times and have featured the following fun:
- Transformers Time Trials (how fast could you convert a Transformer correctly… complete with prizes!)
- Transformers G1 game demonstration on the PS2 (never released in the US, by the way!)
- Transforming sound effect contest (with prizes!)
- Japanese Transformers theme songs you wish you never heard.
- TF: Revenge of the Fallen Toy Giveaways sponsored by Hasbro (before the movie even came out!)
- Guest Host: Gregg Berger (the voice of Grimlock)
- Guest Host: Stan Bush (he had The Touch!)
We even elevated our geek status last year as Transformers Super Fans by singing backup for Stan Bush in concert during the song “Dare!”
This year – “DARE! The Transformers Panel Ultimate” is slated to appear at events outside of Florida including (tentatively) Anime Weekend Atlanta and Gen Con.
So back to the story… we contacted BotCon, the Official Transformers Convention, back in December of last year. I have followed up each month with a polite “are we in” email asking about whether our unique brand of Transformers fun would be welcome. I would get a polite response back, but it was always a “no decision has been made.”
Having not heard anything for another month, I emailed them again yesterday because (in case you haven’t noticed) the convention is less than one month away.
I mean, this is an officially licensed event – so they must have all their ducks in a row. At least more so that the other local fan conventions in and around Florida… right?
This has been quite an eye opener for me because the answer is a resounding no. For those keeping track, BotCon tickets went on sale just eight days ago. As of this post, less than thirty days out, there is no information under “Seminars & Panels” and “Special Events” on BotCon’s official site.
Maybe I’m just jaded from going to so many amateur conventions that announce things more than six weeks out… who knows.
Either way, we got the email yesterday that states
…at this time I don’t think we have a slot for you.
In short: No Transformers Panel from the locals. I’ll still most likely attend BotCon, but it’s just disappointing to be reminded that the professionally run national conventions don’t seem to be any more organized than your local “mom and pop” anime con.
C’est la vie.
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#2 written by The L-berg 2 years ago
Esteban, thank you for sharing your experience. I think what you are identifying as the problems you see at BotCon are the same things that are happening at many of the pro-run cons, such as many of the Creation Entertainment cons. The feedback situation is especially interesting. Of course you’re going to get glowing reviews from people who have paid upwards of $300, because those people are going to get things like face time with the Big Name Guests and other special perqs. When people give you stuff, you’re more inclined to be nice to them.
I think the BotCon attendees will really be missing out by not having “DARE” on the schedule. I am not saying this because Joey Snackpants and Tom are buddies of mine. I am not into Transformers, but I did go to the panel one year (because they are my buddies) and I would rank it up there with one of the best fan panels I’ve ever seen in my 13 years on the con circuit–including ones I’ve hosted.
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#3 written by TTT 2 years ago
With all due respect, I’m sure your panel gives a good overview of Transformers for a generic audience at a generic convention but I don’t think it’s properly structured for Botcon. People at a generic sci-fi show aren’t necessarily expecting TF content (and likely don’t know much about it) and would certainly like a “potpourri” approach. But most Botcon goers would probably already know what you’re talking about, and at any rate enough of it would already be available in other panels or the dealer room that you’d have to focus more on giving a thorough look at just one special interesting aspect of your discussion.
Past fan panels have focused entirely on Japanese toys, or unproduced toys, or LARPing mechanics, or catalogs, or costuming…. just one thing at a time. People aren’t going to go to Botcon to sit in a panel room to hear about “a bunch of fun stuff about Transformers.” That’s what Botcon itself is for. The panel rooms need more focus and more depth.
Also, to be more specific:
-there’s almost always a transformation-time contest
-the PS2 game is infamously bad, and if anybody actually does care about it it’s always in the dealer room anyway
-Stan Bush is almost always there
-free giveaways happen every year
-the Japanese shows are in the dealer roomSo please don’t be discouraged, but I completely understand why the Botcon team couldn’t spare a slot for this.
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TTT,
I guess my first question would be: have you ever actually seen our panel?
Then I would bring up the point that, after working in professional entertainment for YEARS, I’ve seen the most successful national bands grow in popularity by knowing when to let a local act open up for them. We have been bringing Transformers stars and events to Florida long before BotCon set foot into the Sunshine State – and the locals (and many BotCon alumni) are fully aware of what we bring to the table.
I learned, overall though, that BotCon is more of a “trade show” than a convention first hand when I attended this year. You can read about it here:
http://youbentmywookie.com/features/botcon-2010-not-much-more-than-meets-the-eye-9344 -
#5 written by TTT 2 years ago
Tom,
I have not seen your panel. Have you ever seen a Botcon panel?
I have been to my fair share of “Talkin’ About Transformers” fan panels at sci-fi cons, and I’ve been to fan panels at 12 Botcons, so I know how different the dynamics are. I am sure you and your colleagues have great stage presence and know your material backwards and forwards–but I really do think that for you to pitch yourselves at Botcon you’ll need more of a focused theme, based on material and/or guests that aren’t already at the show. Stan and Greg are frequent guests by themselves. Nobody cares about that Japanese PS2 game and it’s very old news. However, if I may be so bold, a panel based around examining TF video games through the years (most of them obscure/foreign and almost every single one of them terrible) would be really interesting and likely draw a big crowd, because it’s never been done before. If you’re interested in trying again and have the resources for it, that would be a really unique experience.
I’ve been to real trade shows and never at such an event have I seen panels like those at a typical Botcon, devoted to creative and/or vintage interests (LARPs, cosplay, hidden easter eggs in 20-year-old animation storyboards, use of prototypes in foreign catalogues) that don’t bring so much as a nickel to the current licenseholder.
I’m glad to see that you like TF:Animated. If you had gone to the IDW panel you could have talked to the authors of the Allspark Almanacs–the fan-favorite companion books that give the coffee-table treatment to every single episode, character, toy, and hidden continuity reference. You also could have gone to the Hasbro panels and asked them about the status of unreleased Animated toys, or, rather than that, gone to the IDW and Hasbro staff at their dealer room displays and talked or asked them about anything you wanted. I’m sorry you were let down by your Botcon experience, but there were many opportunities available for you to have had a great time.
The show is expensive. They have to manufacture exclusive toys (many with all-new parts) and that’s expensive, and it is reflected in the pricing structure for every class of attendee. I can see how it would seem a burden for walk-ins who don’t buy the toys, but the majority of the hobby supports it, as demonstrated by the long-term success of the show’s business model and the high desirability & value of most of the exclusives over the years.
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The success of a business model, does not make the business model correct. BotCon was the top 5 worst run events I have been to in my 20+ years of covention going, and couple the fact its bankrolled by Hasbro and is a ‘professional’ event, just makes it worse. If Amatuer Night at the Apollo is better than Soul Train… maybe you should be looking for a new ‘event’.
The mindless drones in line were willing to “suck it up” and take it. Why? Well pretty damn simple, there is no other choice. If you want your super exclusive dumbass repaint with ‘new parts’, you have to go to this event. Oh, you could go to the Canadian version.
I can see where their business model works. Extremely high price point on ticket, means you only have to sell a bare minimum to turn a profit. Fewer attendees means less overhead, less infrastructure, less dollars out for con workings.
For the 2500 people that were at BotLame, I bet they had fun. Though their expectations were extremely low.
I would never put my time and effort into this event. They would never appreciate it, and management would never allow it. Probably set the bar too high for them, and they MIGHT have to put forth some effort. Right now, its on cruise control and making money.
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#7 written by TTT 2 years ago
The endurance and success of the show (16 years), its high attendance (“2,500″? don’t think so, at 2008 they had over 8,000), the packed rooms at every panel, and the near-instant sell-throughs of the exclusives every single year, all speak for themselves. If you ever do feel like constructing a panel that is up to the standards that the audience there expects–based on unique material they hadn’t just seen in the dealer room–I’m sure it would be a memorable experience. The how-to-make-costumes panelists could do it, and I’m sure you can too.
As for your fellow fans being “mindless drones out for dumbass repaints”….. you paid $150 for a 3-hour experience and one autograph. I paid a little over $100 more than you did, and I got a 4-day experience, the same autographs and then some, all the panels you couldn’t be bothered to go to, and ultra-rare collection pieces that practically nobody else even within the hardcore TF fandom will ever own. You feel shortchanged? I understand why.
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TTT,
Your numbers are a little off and so are some of your assumptions…
1. The 2010 attendance was 3000 attendees based on our combined visual assessment. (Both mine and Joey’s professional backgrounds pertain specifinally to counting people at events.)
2. Claiming that a panel room is always full when it the ONLY alternative to the Dealers Room isn’t something to use as a merit to an event… merely an exhibit of how little is offered to do at the show.
3. Your numbers regarding what was paid for by us at the convention is incorrect. You need to re-check the article. $150 was paid for TWO persons to get early entries and TWO autographs.
4. Next, you state you paid for a four day experience… Let’s see: http://www.botcon.com/BotCon10/BC10panels.pdf
The “experience” seems fairly limited based on that schedule. Again: for the money spent, attendees should REALLY expect more!Face it: you paid for some very expensive toys… and no one is judging you (or anyone) for that. The money you spent, though, was not for any sort of satisfactory convention and/or entertainment experience.
Thus proving what the original article stated: BotCon is a terrible convention – but a good “trade show.”
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I haven’t attended BotCon, just throwing that out there up front. However, as the Editor of The Convention Fans Blog, I’ve been to my fair share of expos, trade shows, and conventions. These are very very different things, but people tend to use the terms interchangeably.
A convention, in my humble opinion, is about programming, interaction, and a focus on the exchange of ideas with members of the community. If you just have a vendor room and some autograph tables for celebs to sit it, you are not a convention. You’re a glorified shopping mall. Even one or two panels does not a convention make.
Some examples to highlight the differences:
PAX Prime/East: Expo
Dragon*con: Convention
National Halloween and Haunters Convention: Trade Show
GameX: Expo
Vulkon: Convention
Otakon: ConventionI don’t know where BotCon falls for sure, having not attended it personally, but given Tom’s assessment (which I value considerably), it sure sounds like a trade show to me.
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#10 written by Chris 2 years ago
I’d just like to add that my one and only BotCon experience was the ’99 show. As I understand it the show is run by different people now, but the experience (or lack thereof) seems to have remained the same: vendor area, a few panels and a few autographs. The majority of our group spent most of our time in the city, there being little to hold us at the Con.
It seems strange to me that BotCon hasn’t evolved in the intervening years into something more. As an official convention with such a varied library of material to draw from there should be a greater experience for the convention attendee, especially considering the cost of the event. To me, the major issue here seems to be does the quality of the convention justify the cost of attending? In 1999, that answer was no and in 2010, it seems to be the same.
Also, not to pick TTT, but how does purchasing “ultra-rare collection pieces that practically nobody else even within the hardcore TF fandom will ever own” make a better con experience for anyone but you? Regardless of how bad a convention is, you’ll always find one person who thoroughly enjoyed it, that doesn’t mean that everyone else does. Honestly, most of the hardcore TF fans I know that still attend BotCon don’t go because it’s a great event, but because there is no other choice for events in the fandom. They’ve got the only game in town, so they can run it however they like and people will still come. But at what they expect their customers to pay, they should provide a better experience.
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#11 written by TTT 2 years ago
Tom: My apologies for not properly dividing up the amount you and your friend paid. However, you can’t very well talk about my “assumptions” while proclaiming there’s no way I could possibly have had a satisfactory or entertaining experience at the show. Be serious, please. I get the feeling you and your friend went to Botcon looking for something entirely different than I did, and different from what most of the other attendees wanted as well. I’m still not clear on just what it was that you expected to find. Everyone I know who went there loved it.
And speaking of what you were looking for, that leads me to….
Kelly: I’ve been to DragonCons, I-Cons, VeriCons, DevilCons, and lots of other ‘cons, and none of them have been as enjoyable as Botcon. And I’m really not sure what I am supposed to see as the difference between a Botcon panel where the fan who convened it shows off a slideshow of the 20-year-old storyboards in his collection, and an I-Con panel where the fan who convened it shows off how to make chain mail. If someone has the knowledge and drive to assemble and deliver an interesting panel theme, then it’s a good panel. Isn’t it?
The fan panel offerings in 2010 were a bit more sparse than in past years, due entirely to the location. There was ALWAYS a comedy panel except for this year. There was ALWAYS a live original fan-written script reading (authors chosen by contest) featuring the original voice actors and sometimes the original voice directors too–except for this year. This is because for the first time, BC was held in Disneyworld and the organizers wanted to keep the evening schedule wide open to allow people to enjoy the parks. I would not want that to be a trade-off forever, but for one year out of more than a decade of tradition I can understand.
I think what many of you see as a prime attractive feature for a convention–the ability to sit in a room with other fans and just talk to each other, or as you put it, “interacting and exchanging ideas”–I fully take for granted and consider to be unworthy of paying an entry price of any amount and certainly unworthy of putting into a schedule slot. That isn’t a panel, that’s called “being able to socialize with other people.” Hey, Spawn fans–come to room 203C at 1pm to talk about Spawn! Zzzzzzzzzzz. Please, we need a schedule for this? This is a feature of a major gathering? At a Botcon, that’s something you do while lounging in the hotel lobby waiting for the next real event to happen or while you’re eating lunch at the cafe, or at any of the very numerous “parts trading parties” that (for what it’s worth) are part of the official event schedule. But honestly, can you explain to me why, In the age of the Internet, someone would need to attend a convention of any kind if all they wanted to do was talk with other fans? If you’re so eager to have another fan discuss arcane trivia with you or read their fanfic to you, why do you have to go to a brick-and-mortar building for that? Why does that deserve to be called a “convention” and why does it need a special event name? You can achieve the same ends on your own with a mailing list and a Meetup page. What’s special about it? Why schedule a trip around it? It’s no different from making and maintaining friendships the normal way–the venue no longer matters!
Yes–I recognize that that is exactly what conventions were for many decades, before hobbies began to be organized around Internet chat rooms. I am aware of the early history of Gygax’ pre-D&D gatherings, of early Tolkien fan gatherings, and other such events in the ’60s and ’70s that really did consist of a lot of nice people with shared interests meeting in someone’s house or a rented room and just talking. But Internet forums are where many such hobbies are oriented now, meaning just “chatting” can happen on a daily basis and it is perfectly well possible for a convention to deliver more than just that. When I go to Botcon, I can “just chat” with the original G1 voice actors, or musicians like Stan Bush, or the guy who wrote a 4-issue British comic book 7 years ago, or the Hasbro team who will give sneak-peeks at what the toys will look like 2 years from now. And so can anyone who goes there and manages their time appropriately.
Chris: by your own reasoning, then, regardless of how GOOD a TF convention is, you can always find one guy who hated it, but that doesn’t mean it was bad. As for the appeal of the exclusive toys: it’s a Transformers fan convention. With that in mind, why would you find it surprising to learn that attendees see the opportunity to get rare and exclusive Transformers to be a major attractive feature? Don’t you think that if a Star Trek convention were able to offer attendees a completely original finalized Star Trek episode for their eyes only, that they would consider it to be a rewarding and valuable experience? If a Botcon attendee isn’t into collecting the toys, that’s fine for them, but let’s not act like the toys AREN’T a major feature of the hobby for most of those who follow it. You can go to LunaCon and say “I hate filk, all this filk is ruining the convention for me!”, but it probably just means you are in the wrong place.
As for Botcon ’99 in particular, as memory serves there was a “Mystery Science Theater”-styled episode spoof panel, a MUSH panel, and a multi-round trivia contest–plus the parts trading parties I mentioned earlier. Do those “count” as what you consider convention panels? What would you rather have had, specifically?
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@TTT
I never said BotCon didn’t have good panels. I didn’t say anything about panel quality at all. I didn’t compare BotCon’s panels to any other convention or expo’s panels. I simply stated that I believe there to be key differences between expos and trade shows, and conventions. One of the major distinctions being programming, and that one or two panels does not constitute “programming”.
I said “Even one or two panels does not a convention make.”
Meaning, if you only have a few, you aren’t offering enough programming to be a full fledged convention. You’re still a trade show or expo with one or two panels.
I think you need to reread my original comment.
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#14 written by TTT 2 years ago
Kelly,
I think we’re talking past each other.
I’m trying to suss out your definition of “programming” as based on “interaction”–I just don’t see how that necessarily makes something any more or less a proper convention than anything else.
When I’ve been to DragonCon and I-Con in particular, one thing I’ll say is that scheduled events were happening continuously, many different ones simultaneously–even all night long, sometimes even 24-hours-a-day. I’ll say right now, Botcon has never had that. However, I don’t think most of them deserved to be called “events” (or “programming”). Especially if they’re things attendees could just as easily do without bothering to go to the show. If a dealer room and autograph panel is a “shopping mall”, why isn’t a schedule full of fan discussions a “website”?
I would consider the International Toy Fair, held annually in NYC, to be a trade show. There is no attendee-created material whatsoever, no vintage material whatsoever, and nothing for anyone to do that does not involve press releases about upcoming merchandise. It is a press event–albeit a fun one that fans can attend. E3, from what I have read, is much the same.
In Tom’s last post, he linked to the BC10 program. As I said, it was more sparse than most years due to Disney access. Why don’t you take a look at it, then imagine an additional 4 or so panels taking place to make it more of a “normal” year–say one comedy, one trivia, one original script-reading, and one LARPing– and tell me where that would fit into your classification scheme? I am honestly curious.
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#15 written by TTT 2 years ago
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#16 written by Chris 2 years ago
No one opinion of a convention can classify it as good or bad, that’s the point. But over the last few years even the most hardcore fans I know have become disillusioned with BotCon. The ridiculous entrance fee might be justifiable if it included some of these exclusive ultra-rare amazo toys (or repaints as most people call them) and the autographs, but it doesn’t. But everything is an extra there. I wouldn’t be remotely surprised if they got the bright idea to hold the “convention” in a vacuum chamber and charge extra for oxygen. They’re going to continue ramping up the prices and maintaining the status quo. Why? Because a certain segment of the fandom will always come running when Hasbro crooks a finger.
I don’t see how you can look at something like Dragon*Con and then the extortion racket that is BotCon and still say BC is an enjoyable event. Maybe if the attendee has some social phobias. If you don’t like people then, hey howdy, BotCon is for you.
As for BotCon ’99, you forgot the Beast Machines panel/sneak preview. Which makes a grand total of five (5!) events outside of the dealer’s room/autograph area. For an event that is supposed to keep your interest across an entire weekend that isn’t much. Heck, a Chick-Fil-A on a Sunday has more going on than any day of that BotCon.
I understand that you really love BotCon and you think it’s a great event. Good for you and I am happy you think you got your money’s worth. But that doesn’t make it the majority opinion. On the other hand, I could be spouting an opinion of one. It does seem to me, in comparision to the hours of events/opportunities for interaction of other shows versus admission cost, that BotCon is overpriced and underscheduled.
You clearly don’t agree and that’s your right, but it’s a shame that a convention with such potential is allowed to stagnate because people don’t hold Hasbro accountable.
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#17 written by TTT 2 years ago
Chris, I guess we just know different hardcore fans.
Logically, if Botcon were so unfun and overpriced it would not exist. Please don’t try to act like the only people who go in for it would just “always come running” no matter what Hasbro did. That projects bad faith–very EXPENSIVE bad faith!–onto so many thousands of people as to be not even remotely believable. Accept the fact that these people are making rational judgments and like what they’re getting.
And I’m truly confused about your “social phobias” complaint. You say I ought to have liked DragonCon better because of a fuller social calendar but at the same time say there’s nothing to do at BC except the dealer room and 5-ish panels and thus nothing else to “keep a person’s interest.” Does that imply that talking to people and making friends is impossible? You’re in a giant crowd of people who all share the exact same hobby as you, it’s the easiest setup in the world in which to make a conversation happen. I’ve done the whole DragonCon thing, the whole “Firefly fans go to Hall B to talk about Firefly,” and it just leaves me cold. Everybody who walks through the door at Botcon is a TF fan. You can talk to anybody there about anything pertaining to TFs. It doesn’t have to be scheduled and it isn’t the organizers’ responsibility. This notion keeps coming up in numerous posts here so it must just be a matter of different fundamental expectations of what a convention is actually supposed to facilitate for its attendees.
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I was going to write 2 pages of how BotCon 2010 was just a fleecing of the fan… but I think Chris said it best.
“I wouldn’t be remotely surprised if they got the bright idea to hold the “convention” in a vacuum chamber and charge extra for oxygen.”
That sums it all up. Put a bow on that sucker, because its a winner!
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Okay… I’m going to try and avoid getting TOO wordy in this – but there’s a lot material here to choose from. Here we go:
1. TTT – WE REVIEWED THIS YEAR’S BOTCON, NOT PREVIOUS YEARS.
By your own admission…
“The fan panel offerings in 2010 were a bit more sparse than in past years, due entirely to the location. There was ALWAYS a comedy panel except for this year. There was ALWAYS a live original fan-written script reading (authors chosen by contest) featuring the original voice actors and sometimes the original voice directors too–except for this year.”A convention doesn’t cut programming to give attendees time to see the area. People take extra time AROUND a convention schedule to see the area. BotCon 2010 was WEAK in the programming department. Period.
Chris has pointed out, though, that this is NOT unique (in his opinion) to 2010 since he attended a BotCon in 1999 and it had the same faults. Both myself and Joey Snackpants spoke to other attendees at BotCon (and online) who have conveyed the same gripe.
What I am learning very quickly in reading these replies is that BOTCON IS NOT A CONVENTION FOR TRANSFORMERS FANS. IT IS A TRADE SHOW FOR BOTCON FANS.
There’s nothing wrong with being a fan of a convention… but please don’t pretend that BotCon is an event put on for fans. Which leads me to:
2. TTT – WE EXPECT ENTERTAINMENT FOR OUR TICKET PRICE… NO MATTER WHAT WE PAY.
You stated:
“I think what many of you see as a prime attractive feature for a convention–the ability to sit in a room with other fans and just talk to each other, or as you put it, “interacting and exchanging ideas”–I fully take for granted and consider to be unworthy of paying an entry price of any amount and certainly unworthy of putting into a schedule slot. That isn’t a panel, that’s called ‘being able to socialize with other people.’”You’re dead wrong here. The “prime attractive feature for a convention” should be entertainment and variety. You pointed out the full schedule from the convention here: http://www.botcon.com/BotCon10/BC10schedule.pdf
Let’s look at Thursday as an example. The only “event” offered is:
9 AM – 5 PM Transformers Figure Customizing Class Dolphin Asia 3
So what if I’m a TRANSFORMERS FAN that isn’t into customizing figures? What if I’m in it for the comic books? The cartoon? Michael Bay? My point is that BotCon is catering to a niche within a niche – toy collectors, NOT Transformers fans. Thus (I’ll say it again) it is a TRADE SHOW.
3. TTT – SPEAKING OF THE SCHEDULE… THEY ARE PADDING IT WITH NOTHING
Here’s your schedule link again:
http://www.botcon.com/BotCon10/BC10schedule.pdfTake a moment and read it… REALLY read it.
WEDNESDAY has only one event… the Kennedy Space Center Tour is a premium off site occurance that isn’t a BotCon convention event.
DAY #1 count: 1 EVENTTHURSDAY has a bunch of stuff listed… but registration pick up and dealers loading in aren’t events.
DAY #2 count: 1 EVENTFRIDAY has some stuff… but most of it is NOT events. Club Store opens? That’s not an event – that’s shopping. Contest Check, Late Package Pick-Up, etc. All not events.
DAY #3 count: 6 EVENTSSATURDAY is “the main day” and with THOUSANDS of attendees expected, there should be hours and hours of programming… unless it’s a trade show. Two of the events are “early admission only” – great for BotCon fans, but jack and shit for Transformers fans. I’ll count them, though, just to be nice.
DAY #4 count: 11 EVENTSSUNDAY seems like such an afterthought… and, honestly, counting autograph sessions as events is kind of cheating, but I’ll take what I can get at this point.
DAY #5 count: 7 EVENTSSo, during a five day event attendees are treated to a LOT of shopping and 26 events. Of the 26 events 35% of the “events” are autograph sessions. Most of the other events are made available only to the premium ticket holders or by paying for an additional premium (i.e. early bird) ticket.
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TTT,
Three of the people replying to your comments go to a large number of conventions for professional reasons. You’re defending the undefendable.
BotCon is a weak convention – but a good trade show.
BotCon is not a convention for Transformers fans – it is a trade show for niche toy collectors.
When I go to a theme park, I have access to all the same rides as the person who paid for the expensive VIP package. BotCon offers almost NOTHING to its General Admission attendees (re-read the You Bent My Wookie article regarding Peter Cullen’s autograph!) for the price of admission. Proof of this is the fact that I had to pay to get access to specific parts of the “convention” so I could write a review… and I (and Mr. Snackpants) had press passes.
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IN CONCLUSION: The tragedy of BotCon really is a shame. The Transformers has a fandom that could truly benefit from a fun show, but as long as Hasbro owns the “fan convention” then it will just be a glorified trade show.
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#20 written by TTT 2 years ago
Tom,
“You’re dead wrong here [on the need for having a schedule full of 'Come here to talk about this with other fans]“–okay, then, that’s going to remain our ultimate area of disagreement. As I think I’ve made clear, I’ve been to shows that had schedules like that and I don’t get either their appeal or, frankly, their rationale for existing. If that’s a “convention”, so is CraigsList.
As for programming for those who are “in it for the comic book or the cartoon or Michael Bay,” then I’m still not sure what you’re complaining about. There were comic book panels there. There were voice actor panels there. There were panels about the next cartoon there. There was a Lasertag-styled, run-and-shoot Nerf gun game people could do there based on the Bay movies. All of those actually took place while you were at the show and your admission fee gained you entrance to them–but you chose not to wait for them. It is not true that “Botcon offers almost nothing to general attendees”. In the time that you were there, you could have done every single thing available to the premium preregistrants.
I understand how frustrating it can be to wait out the afternoon in an autograph line, but by your own admission you chose to do that and nothing else.
Calling Botcon “undefendable” and “a tragedy” is pretty over-the-top. Is it “a tragedy” that people go to I-Con and actually pay money just for the privilege of hearing other people say “hey, I like Buffy too!”? No, it’s just something one may or may not be interested in.
It is also kinda strange to see you attempt to draw such a firm distinction between “toy collectors” and “Transformers fans”, given that your show review mentions you spent $300 on Optimus Prime merchandise. I’d wager you out-bought and out-spent me. Look at that Saturday night “Hall of Fame” dinner event–it was entirely devoted to commemorating major past contributors to the hobby: the original Japanese and American creative teams from the early ’80s and the most popular characters, as chosen by votes on about 10 of the biggest TF fan websites. Nary a piece of Chinese plastic to be seen.
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#21 written by Pete 2 years ago
Here is my question. How can you review a show you were barely at? Thats like going to a movie, seeing the first 15 minutes and then saying the ending sucked.
And call it a tragedy all you want. But MANY of the fans who go to BotCon also go to other shows as well. It seems like that fact has been dismissed. Implying that BotCon fans are just mindless drones who have no experiences outside of BotCon is wrong.
Fact is this… To judge a show you have to go to it for more than half a day. Furthermore, for the fans who did not get exhausted and went to the full 3 -5 days (depending on the package they chose), they have been VERY happy about the event. There have been numerous posts all over the Transformers boards about how great this show was.
There was a comment about events for fans who wanted more than the toys? Comics, cartoons and so on? Well, you have to go to the panels. Did you? No.
In the main review on youbentmywookie I see nothing in your report about the Hall of Fame Dinner hosted by Hasbro Saturday night that has been widely praised throughout the fandom.
I see nothing about the Friday preview. The Friday afternoon Film Fest. Nothing about the Hasbro Designers panel on Sunday where fans (walk ins as well) see toy previews that the general public won’t see for months. And nothing about the other special guests who were at the show on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
A shame there is also no mention of the Activision booth where fans could demo the new “War for Cybertron game”, no mention of the Autobot Alliance Acadamey where kids and fans could run an “obstacle” course.
And back to the one point, you asked about comics. Did you attend the IDW panel on Saturday? Did you stop by their booth at the show? Meet the various IDW artists?
Finally, before commenting on what Registered attendees “don’t” get, you should know everything they DO get. For the fans who did not get exhausted after a few hours, the ones who came out for the full three days, they had, from the many MANY posts online, one of the best BotCon experiences yet. Many first time attendees also said that this was more than they could have hoped for. But again, this requires going to the show for more than half a day…
I would go to the message boards and see what the FANS think of their exclusive toys and their fan experience. BotCon draws both fans and collectors’ and many of them were thrilled with the figure offerings. BotCon toys have a lasting value and that is due both to the exclusiveness AND the quality of the toys/characters.
p.s. Really a shame you missed the Cullen panel, a completely full panel room and a HUGE standing ovation as he left the stage. Was truly magical…
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#23 written by TTT 2 years ago
Joey, for what you paid you could have attended every single panel, played “War for Cybertron” on giant plasma screens, and joined the TF Nerf-gun shootout game. Not to mention talking to other fans there or the creative types (past and present) who had booths in the dealer room. Did you at least stop by Stan’s booth and say hi?
You chose to do nothing but the autograph line. Not the organizers’ choice. Your choice. Do you think it is fair to suppose that if you had chosen to do more than that, you would have experienced more and enjoyed it more?
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So I… I could walk around the garage sale… or go to the single panel room… WOOT! Oh, I forgot… I could play the game I already own… a bigger screen, with controller with someone else’s cookies on it, for a limited amount of time…. Now that’s what I call entertainment!
Actually that is big jar of lame sauce. There needs to be something going on to be ‘enjoyed’. Next you will be telling me I could have sat in the lobby of the lovely Dolphin Resort and watched the people go by as part of my ‘BotCon experience’.
I would point to the poor excuse for a ‘schedule’ that Tom posted time and time again previously.
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TTT,
Our key point of disagreement is in our expectations from an event. Conventions have to make money – we can all accept that. My point (and, it would seem, the point of others here) is that BotCon is not providing the level of entertainment and programming conducive to the price points it offers.
One panel room plus a dealers room is NOT a convention. I’ve already offered plenty of facts to support the my claims that BotCon is a weak event. Here’s a greatest hits list to refresh your memory:
1. BotCon didn’t have any events posted until less than thirty day from the event. As a matter of fact, they didn’t even offer tickets more than a month in advance. This shows poor organization on their part and a disrespect for fans who make plans more than a few weeks in advance.
2. BotCon cleverly set up a “bait and switch” to force general admission attendees into HAVE to buy an early bird admission to enjoy some of the key programming of the convention… i.e. getting Peter Cullen’s autograph.
3. BotCon didn’t even have the courtesy to note that there was an additional fee for securing the aforementioned autograph. You were told that you would be paying the additional $25 ONCE YOU WERE IN LINE AT THE CONVENTION.
4. BotCon offered ONE ROOM of programming outside the dealers room. If you didn’t want to see what was offered at any given time – then you could just go back to the dealers room. I’ve been to small anime conventions run by college clubs that offer more than that for a $20 cover charge.
5. BotCon offers a number of other events… for a price. If Botcon charged $300 per ticket for the advance/VIP super duper ticket – and each attendee got a cool toy that (at most) cost Hasbro $50 to repaint and package – and 1000 people bought said ticket – THEN HASBRO GROSSED A QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS FROM THE “COLLECTORS” WHO ATTEND THE CON. Why worry about offering entertainment for attendees who aren’t there for the toys? THEY DON’T NEED TO. The folks buying the top end admission covers the bills, hence motivation to put on a great show for anyone outside those 1000 people doesn’t exist – hence my comment of BotCon being a tragedy.
Your attempt at a counter point regarding the money I spent at the convention actually PROVES my point. Yes: I spent close to $300 on some Optimus Prime figures because:
-I still had the cash handy since I didn’t blow it on an extremely overpriced advance/VIP super duper ticket and
-That’s what people do at Trade Shows. They buy stuff.
And so, for the umpteenth time:
BotCon is a weak convention – but a good trade show.
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Pete,
I didn’t have to sit all the way through the Dungeons & Dragons movie back in 2000 to know it was a lost cause. I spent eight hours on property for BotCon… and they failed to offer enough to keep myself (and Mr. Snackpants interested.)
The rest of your argument regarding elements that weren’t covered in the YBMW article are VERY easy to address. Joey and I didn’t review the following:
-The Film Fest of Friday
-ANY events on Friday
-The Hall of Fame Dinner
-Other related events…WHY? Because the “press” badges we were issued weren’t good on Friday – NOR were they good for access to the premium events. How can we cover the events if they we aren’t offered access to them?
THUS THE CORE OF THIS DISCUSSION: we gave the point of view of the convention from the “every man” attending the event; not a seasoned BotCon attendee. Since our passes availed us no more access beyond the off the street general admission attendees, our gripes (price gouging, etc.) are 100% accurate from the point of view we wrote them from.
Also – you state that we should have reported on what General Admission attendees were offered on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. IMPOSSIBLE. General admission tickets didn’t go on sale until Saturday. (I know; I went Thursday to see if I could get them in advance.) Your logic = fail.
BotCon ROCKS if you paid $250+ to attend. If you’re not part of that 1000, there really isn’t anything special offered. I am willing to bet that everyone raving about OMGBOTCONROCKEDMYWORLD on the forums that you are reading are the folks who bought the top level packages.
BotCon caters to the high paying collectors… not to fans. Some would call that elitism.
As for the exhibits in the dealers room and panels you mentioned:
1. The Cullen panel is the one thing we both wanted to attend – but our disappointment outweighed our need to see him speak. As far as it being packed… OF COURSE IT WAS PACKED. The only other option was the dealers room. TRUE FACT: We had a friend with us who grew up in Ecuador and was a big Transformers fan. He had NO URGE to meet Mr. Cullen since he was not the voice of Optimus Prime in his native country. So during that panel his only other option was to walk around the dealers room. Again. He left before Joey and I.
2. The Hasbro Nerf gun challenge thing was cute. For five minutes. If you’re eight years old.
3. Joey already addressed the Activision booth. The game was already out and BOTH the TVs in my house (which BOTH have Xboxs connected to them) are bigger and nicer than those at the game booth. How can I afford such amazing electronics in my home? Simple. I don’t blow $300 on lame ass trade shows… I value my money (and time) much more than that.
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Wow… guys. You know we were actually there. We saw the ‘convention’. We waiting in the crappy handled lines. Tried to pull information from the poorly briefed staff. We tried to have a good time, even after waiting in line since 5:30am. I should have been real easy to please *THIS* Transformers fan. I am the unmarried, upper-middle class male with plenty of discretionary income.
You know, even two-bit Mom and Pop events with budgets of $6,000 in total, have schedules up 30-60 days in advance. They have at least 2 event rooms. Oi vey… You BotCon’ers just roll over and take whatever they give you, as long as you get your toy? Damn, I am in the wrong business.
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#29 written by Pete 2 years ago
Good to see you are misquoting me. I never said that you should report on what General Admission attendees receive on Fri, Sat, and Sun. I said what REGISTERED ATTENDEES receive. If you didn’t attend the events, fine, but it was all there in the program and online.
Furthermore, I have a feeling the thousand plus fans that came as Registered attendees would have a MAJOR issue with you calling them “elitists.” How much, Tom, do you think it costs the “average fan” from out of state (or even in state these days) to go to SDCC? Now, before you go and make the statement that SDCC offers A TON of things to do, realize, Registered Attendees are coming for ONE THING to BotCon. Transformers. And for $300 they get:
A 5 piece boxed set with a free bonus figure
Friday Admission with all events
Free Autographs (Peter Cullen and other guests)
Saturday Night Hall of Fame Dinner
Sat and Sun Exhibitor Hall
All Sat/Sun panels and seminarsHere is the core of the argument, to YOU, BotCon was a trade show. Whatever. But you can’t deny to those who came as attendees, the show is not only a convention, but an awesome fan experience in which Hasbro and other licensees take the time to interact and put it all out there for the fans.
Peter Cullen was only available for 9:00-11:00 this year. In years past he usually does two autograph sessions, so walk ins have always had a chance to get his autograph during normal show hours. This year was different.
So, taking Cullen out of the equation, and looking at JUST what General Admission receives for $18:
- Access to Exhibitor Hall with large Dealer room, Club store, Hasbro showcase with designers doing sketches for free, Activision booth, Autobot Alliance obstacle course and Transformers merchandise from around the world for purchase.
- Panels featuring Scott McNeil and Paul Eiding… Hasbro Studios… IDW… Activision… Hasbro Marketing… TF Collectors’ Club
- Life size Bumblebee, Motormaster Truck, other vehicles on hand for pictures.
* Additional $25 for Autographs, like MANY shows, with guests: Hideaki Yoke, Bob Budiansky, Paul Eiding, Scott McNeil, Stan Bush. Included Autograph card by Dan Khanna.
So for between $18-$43, even the average fan gets a very cool convention experience if that person is in to all things Transformers.
WIth all due respect, it is fine that you have your opinions based on your half day at the show, but they do not in any way outweigh the hundreds of positive written responses from those who came as Registered attendees or as walk ins and made a point of taking in the whole show.
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#30 written by Pete 2 years ago
And no, you did NOT give a review of the everyman. Because the “everyman” would have gone to the panels, visited with Hasbro, gone and seen Peter Cullen speak, heard what IDW had to say about the future of the comics, seen what is up with Hasbro’s new programming venture “Hasbro Studios”, checked out the panel with Paul Eiding (voice of Perceptor) and Scott McNeil (voice of Hall of Fame inductee Dinobot), ran the Autobot Alliance obstacle course, gotten a picture with Motormaster and then TOPPED it off by buying some vintage Transformers toys…
Again, to review a movie, you have to SEE the whole movie.
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Sorry Pete, you do not have to see the whole movie to review it. I can cite numerous times people have gotten up and left in the middle of a movie because it was so bad. We did not make opinions on anything we did not see, though we did make opinions on the fact that were not able to see certain aspects of your event.
Of our group of 5 that went to BotCon, 3 left BEFORE us because they were that bored! I stayed because I felt I needed to stay, that I must have been missing SOMETHING that would be the BotCon 2010 experience.
I experienced 66% of what BotCon 2010 had to offer. Which were:
1.) An Exhibitor hall
2.) A Panel Room
3.) A lineI will boil down my opinion of BotCon 2010….
Going home and taking a nap was preferable than continuing the BotCon 2010 experience.
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#32 written by Pete 2 years ago
Joey, you did not experience 66% of what BotCon 2010 had to offer. You just didn’t. You both by your own admission were there during show hours for less than 4 hours. There is no way you could have in that time frame.
If you prefer a nap, hey, no worries. Plenty of fans were still on hand for the festivities…
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#33 written by TTT 2 years ago
“BotCon offered ONE ROOM of programming outside the dealers room”
And you chose not to go there at all, not even when it offered programming about Animated, which you like, and Peter Cullen, whom you like a lot. It was waiting for you all day, but you were apparently so “tired and disappointed” that instead of taking the opportunity to get SOME experience back for your investment, you chose to do nothing at all.
If you were that tired, what makes you think you would have taken any more advantage of 3 panel rooms, or 7? Heck, a person can only exist in one place at a time, and you and Joey had just a few hours. If the comic book panel, the Cullen panel, and the new toy panel had all been happening in 3 rooms simultaneously, would you have gone to any of them? Is the number of doors more important than what’s behind them? Or would you have considered that stupidly bad scheduling and condemned it too? I keep trying to figure out what you would have chosen to engage with at Botcon and keep drawing a blank.
And please, enough of trying to characterize the BC preregistrants and/or toy collectors as some kind of “elite”, a “niche of a niche”.
You spent more money than I did, on toys for your collection. Joey boasts of his own high-spending potential. Apparently the two of you spend a major chunk of your real-time lives going to one convention after another after another. Well, most adults cannot afford to do that, in terms of either money, frequent days off, or otherwise unoccupied weekends. Time is just as subject to elitism as money is. There aren’t eight or nine Botcons a year for the max-paying preregistrants, there’s only one. That’s not a “toy-collector niche,” that’s a vacation. Doesn’t sound quite so elite that way to me.
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Pete, I am starting to feel like the kid who suddenly chimed in with, “The Emporer has no clothes!”
Of course if you surround yourself with ‘yes’ men, you feel extremely pumped about your project.
I will give BotCon 2010 one thing. It was an event where you could participate in 100% of the events offered. Though in most of the circles I run, that is the worst thing to say about a ‘convention’. That mentality assumes that the Transformers Fan is a completely homogenized group of lemmings that will consume whatever you provide and will thank you at the end of the day, which looks like they do reading the forums.
Our BotCon 2010 experience began at 5:30am. When you go to Disney, your “Disney Day” begins from the moment you pass by through those arches over the highway. We left for lunch at 1:00pm… because, well *I* personally thought you guys hadn’t done anything right for the 7 hours I had been there, why would have anything changed? I determined in my own mind that your group would probably screw up the one thing that couldn’t be screwed up, a Peter Cullen Q&A.
The part of this that really makes me sad… you really didn’t have to do much to impress 2 HUGE Transformers fans. You just had to do the same amount as every other 2-bit, fly-by-night, ‘convention’ does in the state of Florida. Then stir in the Transformers IP!
It looks like the amateurs in Florida outshine the visiting professionals, but Esteban pointed that out at the beginning of this discussion.
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#35 written by Pete 2 years ago
Yes men? I am not someone who would be in a position to need/or want “yes men”.
I am strictly going by feedback on the 4 major TF related fan boards. Is BotCon the “perfect” convention? No, never have claimed that. Does it have things that can be better? Absolutely, all shows do, and changes are implemented each year. Was it even close to as bad as you are saying it was? Absolutely not. And THAT comes from all of the people who have been to MANY BotCon’s, a few BotCon’s or just one, this one.
I just know that tons of other “HUGE” Transformers fans were impressed. I am sorry you feel so negatively against your fellow fan, for them appreciating the fact that they could experience almost everything without having to choose.
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#36 written by J.Szewczyk 2 years ago
Have u ever been to a botcon other then this year? I been going to botcon since 05, and I go to 4 con a year with at else 1 of them being that I have to been to before. I can strong agree with why they did not give u a spot for your panel. Basicly u have taken everything they do and try to say its your idea. Wow your games are the same ones they have at botcon.
Now I will give you that this year did seam half azz then in the pass years sinces fun publication has been running botcon. There were a few major and minor set backs for this years con. 1st year for online registation for both dealers and for those attending. Also 1st year for the Transformers hall of fame.
Did u stay for all 5 days of the con? Yes I said 5 days as some of us show up earlier so we could go on the tour or be a part of the custom class. I’m. Sorry if u did not enjoy the show. But for a good part of the fan base its more then a place to buy transformer toys. It a place where u can meet up with the freinds u have made over the years and make new ones. It were you can talk about anything related to the transformer line and get a different view about why hasbor did this but not that.
Maybe if u went with open eyes and not closed ones u would see that there is more to the show then a dealers floor.
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#38 written by The L-berg 2 years ago
As Kelly (above) pointed out, trade shows, expos and cons are three different things. I would say since BotCon has “con” in the title, one would have certain expectations of the event. I’ve been to many a con, and I’ve run many panels. A panel discussion–or at least, a good one–shouldn’t just be fans “sitting around talking”; a panel should be focused, and the moderator should come prepared with topics for discussion. What it provides is a real-time discussion, which isn’t something one can get from the internet–because what if you come late to a web forum and have an awesome point to make, but no one’s looked at the thread for 4 days?
So anyway, it sounds like what Tom and Joey Snackpants were looking for were more panels of this mold (the moderated discussion, led by fans) and did not see anything like it on the schedule. Looking at the schedule myself, I see guest Q&As and a couple of Hasbro Q&As. I do see a couple of things that could be more fannishly-interactive, like Saturday’s roundtable. However, I am just guessing, because I couldn’t find any panel descriptions.
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#39 written by TooEliteaswell 2 years ago
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#44 written by Suspsy 2 years ago
The fact remains, Croom, that you and your sidekick only stuck around for a few hours, most of which was spent standing in the autograph line. Frankly, if I’d been stuck in a line like that, I’d have been irritable too. Not nearly so much so that I’d have packed it all in and hightailed it like you did, however.
For you to claim that your review is in any way reasonable is an insult to the human intelligence. You didn’t attend a single panel, you failed to describe the Hasbro display, the video games, and the Nerf game because none of it interested you personally, and you somehow have the audacity to argue that your estimation of attendance is more accurate than those of people who were there for the whole duration. And for what it’s worth, your panel frankly sounds like it would’ve been a failure, to use your fondest description. Mind, it would’ve been amusing to see you two getting reamed over your apparent ignorance of Beast Wars.
Finally, your reliance on name-calling and false accusations does indeed smack of bitterness. You’re miffed because FP didn’t want any part of you or your panel.
You are the ones who have failed here, sir.
Oh, and for the record, I too got Peter Cullen’s autograph. I simply walked up to him Saturday evening in a bar and had him sign my TF Hall of Fame card. You might’ve been able to casually meet with him at some point as well if you hadn’t been so tired.
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Any suggestions or hints? Thank you! -
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I was waiting for someone with an outside view of convention organization like yourself to confirm my own thoughts about Botcon not being as attendee friendly as it could be (and to let me know I’m not crazy for feeling like a schedule would be nice to have more than a week in advance.) And here it is, the post that I’ve been waiting in cringing anticipation for.
I’ve been to three of the last five Botcons run under the current organizers and I tell you these sorts of frustrations are pretty much par for the course. It’s an official convention for a major licensed property but it’s run like a fan convention from ten years ago. Except this year they’ve instituted online registration for the first time (at an additional 10 dollar cost for those who use it.) So I can’t say they’re totally out of step with technology. But I can say they’re out of step with what current convention culture expects and how convention fans are used to being treated.
When it was announced the show was coming to Florida I was prepared to be embarrassed when convention fans outside of repeat Botcon goers would eventually catch wind of how this show rolls. As someone whose convention going experience is limited mostly to Botcons over the last ten years, I was amazed when I moved to Florida last year and saw how much better even the tiniest other conventions were run. Schedules and online registration and convention guests lists posted well in advance of a show were luxuries I thought exclusive to established super shows like SDCC or Anime Expo or Otakon. Then I got to Miami and went to Yasumicon, Mizucon and a Supercon and boy were my eyes opened. Since Botcon was my only con experience I figured other small cons like it had the same headaches and organization problems. Holy crap was I wrong.
It may be that Botcon is essentially a small convention with a big license that caters to a clientele very different from the seasoned Floridian convention goer. I tell you, it’s really only the highest paying pre-regs that matter to the organizers and if those people don’t care about guest announcements or event schedules then the organizers think they’re doing good. Did you know that the attendees who register at the highest level and pay in excess of $300 to do so are the only ones given feedback forms? As long as Botcon can get a couple thousand people to pay that they’re really not concerned with tending to the needs of lesser paying attendees.
Botcon is really more about the money than anything else and it’s resulted in some policies that I have never seen instituted in other conventions and that actually make it harder for the more casual person to attend. For example, with other cons you can reasonably expect a three day pass to cost in the neighborhood of $40. Botcon is not a convention you can get three day access to for less than the $140 lowest level pre-registration cost. And if you don’t pre-reg you can’t get in Friday! It’s kind of strange and I like feeling all special when I’m in that first day but I wonder if policies like that are really what’s best for the show.
I’ve been to one of your Transformers panels and I think your style is very different from anything I’ve seen at Botcon. It’s engaging, irreverent, crazy and fun but Botcon panels are traditionally more serious and very toy and celebrity focused. There are only rarely fan panels of the kind you’d find at anime and pop culture cons because most of the panel schedule is dedicated to Q&A sessions with the guest voice actors, comic and cartoon staff and of course Hasbro employees whose product presentations are the highlight of the show. There is usually an MSTK3000 style skit but that’s done by some of the official fan club staff and other long time friends of the organizers. I am not surprised that you as an outsider to the club didn’t get allowed a panel. Or maybe they just didn’t want to hire extra security for when you got jumped by marauding hordes of Beast Wars fans!
Now excuse me as I go wait for the organizers to post the mail-in registration form so that I can pay $140 for a three day pass.